Fera ceased existing long before she died ([info]fera_festiva) wrote,
@ 2008-05-01 16:00:00
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Entry tags:deathly hallows uberwank

Deathly Hallows uberwank: Chapter 35, King's Cross
This'll have to do. If all else fails, appropriate icon is appropriate.


"By the way, Harry, now that I'm utterly dead, it seems a good time to tell you that I was quite the arse-bandit in my youth. Do stop feeling compassion for that wretched flayed child under your seat." - [info]air_and_angels, here

So there's this line in The Princess Bride about how death cannot stop true love. That's true, I guess, but what's even more true is this: even death cannot get in the way of the unstoppable force that is Dumbledore's Final Thought!

As we begin, Harry is sort of semi-conscious, and we take a little time out while he adjusts to the situation and makes some quasi-philosophical remarks on the nature of being and things like that. It's all misty and there's a bunch of stuff going on where the surroundings are not hidden by the mist but forming from it, which is pretty cool, I guess.

After a while, Harry realises that he is naked. I'm sure there's a joke to be had here about that high-pitched noise that you can hear and how it's the sound of a million Dan Radcliffe fangirls imagining how this is going to look on film, but any humour in it has been utterly undermined by Equus (and I strongly suspect that is exactly why Dan Radcliffe did that play in the first place), so if you could just assume it's still funny and I said something incredibly witty about it, that would be good. Cheers.

Meanwhile, back in fiction, Harry puts on some robes.

Then he spends some time wondering WTF is going on and at some point during this, notices a weird noise, which he pretty much ignores for the time being. He looks around and sees a high glass roof and a room even bigger than Hogwarts' great hall. He wonders where he could be. We would all be wondering along with him if the chapter itself weren't called King's Cross, which does kind of give it away.

Right after this, Harry figures out what the weird noise is, when he sees what looks like a child, all cut and in pain, choking and curled up and generally in a crap state. He's wangsting over whether he should help it or something when he is saved from having to do any more thinking for himself by the arrival of... Dumbledore!

... Ah, fuck.

Dumbledore greets Harry by calling him "You wonderful boy. You brave, brave man", which strikes me as massively patronising. In his infinite wisdom, Dumbledore tells Harry to just leave the mash-up baby there, there's nothing to be done for it, so they leave it under the seat and fuck off. That's how we know this isn't the real King's Cross, by the way; if it was, there would be a bomb disposal squad already on the scene and Harry and Dumbledore would be getting arrested on suspicion of terrorist activities or shot or something.

So, I will freely admit this: I was one of the people who did not get what was going on with the flayed baby thing at all. According to JKR's site, it's "the last piece of soul Voldemort possesses" - the idea is that when Voldemort hit Harry with the AK, they were both sent to this limbo place - and Harry's soul appears unblemished (his scar and even his glasses are missing, by the way), whereas Voldemort's is so damaged already that his soul appears all stunted and wounded. I can't decide if this bit was done really well - I really do like this idea, even if I didn't understand it, but then I generally fail to get stuff like this right away anyway - or if it's maybe a bit too blurry, given that JKR also says she's been asked about this bit "a LOT". In any case, if it's the latter I can't really justify complaining about it given I've already been snarking over Dumbledore's annoying tendency to show up at the most appropriate moment and explain the plot.

This is what he now does. First of all he explains that Harry isn't, in fact, dead. Dumbledore is, though, because he always has to piss all over Harry's achievements in a way that makes it sound like he's being nice. They talk in circles for a while then, before Dumbledore eventually moves on to the next plot point to be explained, which is that because Lily sacrificed herself, her magical protection was in Harry's blood, and then because Voldemort took Harry's blood, that sacrifice lives on... or something, I stopped paying attention part way through, but it's something like that. I don't like to examine Lily's blood sacrifice in too much depth, because I have some idea of how blood cells are produced and I don't think they stick around for long (something like 2 million erythrocytes are produced in your bone marrow every second, and their life span is about 120 days, apparently) so let's just stop thinking about this, anyway, because this is getting stupid, JK Rowling didn't give a fuck about actual human blood cells when she wrote the whole sacrifice thing and anyway, it's magic, wizards did it, so STFU Fera.

Dumbledore's next bombshell is that Harry is a horcrux, although I think we gathered that from that one Snape-centric chapter we did a couple of weeks ago. Anyway, Harry was a horcrux by mistake, because Voldemort's soul was so unstable anyway that it came apart during the attack back in 1981. It's lucky, I guess, that this happened when Harry himself was attacked, and not - for example - when Voldemort killed any of the other people he randomly offed over the course of the series. I mean, imagine if he'd accidentally created a new horcrux, in the same way, when he killed that German woman and her kids in Chapter 12.

So, yeah, in summary: while Lily's sacrifice is in Voldemort, Harry can't die. Handy.

They spend a little more time sitting and listening to the whimpering scalebaby before Harry asks Dumbledore for some more explanation (for fuck's sake, Potter, don't encourage him!). This time it's to do with how it was that Harry used the Force back in Chapter 4 and somehow beat Voldemort. Dumbledore explains that, for some reason, Harry's wand was more powerful than Voldemort's (this is to do with their blood connection and the connection between their souls and other stuff, and as far as I can tell is nothing to do with the elder wand yet, which is confusing). So, yeah, that is why the wand broke. You'll remember that the wand in question originally belonged to Lucius Malfoy - Voldemort took it from him way back in Chapter 1, starting a steady stream of dick jokes that would persist through the book, and... wait, hang on, what? Dumbledore specifically refers to the wand as being Lucius Malfoy's. How did he know? I guess because everything that has happened in the last, say, thirty years was orchestrated by Dumbledore - right down to Harry developing a particular love of treacle tart and the colour underpants that Ron is wearing right now and stuff like that.

Or else this can be explained through something like "it's the afterlife" and therefore all knowledge is accessible. Hey, maybe Dumbledore managed to score a job in the afterlife, a sort of non-religion-specific St Peter, doing meet-and-greet duty and induction sessions for the newly dead. And, naturally, he ran into Snape about half an hour ago, and Snape told him everything about Lucius Malfoy's wand.

Or JKR cocked up, whatever. I would guess this option, since Harry also refers to "the wand that Voldemort borrowed", and I can't see any way that he'd have known, either.

Moving on, Dumbledore concludes all this wandlore stuff with something about how basically Harry is immune to Voldemort now and I fail to get WTF is going on. Then they have a little discussion about where they are, concluding eventually that they are in King's Cross station, which prompts Dumbledore to call Harry "my dear boy" again and explain that, "This is, as they say, your party". God, he's so condescending in this chapter. Anyway, "your party"? Who says that? It's like how there are cartoons, aimed at children but very much written by grown-ups, which have the tendency to completely fail at real slang and have kids saying awkward, forced things like "Crucial!" or "To the max!" all the time.

Presumably in order to make Dumbledore STFU before he says, "The invisibility cloak? I'd hit it!" or something equally wrong, Harry brings up the topic of, here we go again, the deathly hallows. Aren't we over these by now? Clearly not, for Dumbledore begins an extended wangst session, starting by essentially complaining about how great he is for finding the hallows, and there are tears in his eyes at one point, and then he tells Harry that he no longer has any secrets, which as we will see now, when Dumbledore spends a good five pages talking about Grindelwald and never once mentions the whole cocksucker club business, is bullshit.

OK, so whether JKR should have outed Dumbledore in-book is something I've discussed before, so I won't dig it up in too much detail here. However, if she was going to, this might have been the ideal place to handwave it in - there doesn't seem to be any kind of time limit or whatever going on here, and if the wizarding world really is cool with homosexuality as she claims (more on that in a second) then it would have been easy for Dumbledore just to say something like, "I loved him passionately" or "Young love blinds us, Harry!" or whatever, and Harry could say, "Of course" or something, enough to make it crystal clear that Dumbledore was gay and Harry was cool with it, and then the conversation would move on. Actually, reading this section in order to comment on it I notice that it is made fairly clear (a choice quote: "And then, of course, he came...", p573 if you want to verify that) but not so much so that it counts as in-canon gayitude.

But then, maybe this is totally not the right time for this one. Say Harry - you're a horcrux, you just got pwned but you pretty much need to go back and do some pwning yourself, DON'T TOUCH THE SCALEBABY, and by the way, I'm gay, just FYI. You know? What I mean is, if right after Dumbledore's death wasn't the right time for Tonks to throw herself at Lupin (and it wasn't; regardless of my own shipping preferences, it really, really wasn't), then right after Harry himself has been near enough killed might not be the right time for Dumbledore to introduce such a potentially weighty topic, especially if he's not sure how Harry's gonna take it. It could have complicated matters more than necessary, you know? Harry is pretty dense and would probably need it spelled out about a dozen times in increasingly graphic and/or schoolboy terms, plus we don't have much evidence to go on as to what Harry's thoughts on yaoi are, so I guess Dumbledore is just concerned that things might go more like this and be totally awkward:

DUMBLEDORE: I loved him passionately... alas, I allowed myself to be blinded to what he would become... this is love's folly... blah blah blah...

HARRY: ... Yeah, I understand, you... wait, what? You were in love with him?

DUMBLEDORE: Yes, but that is not important. Blah blah blah destiny. Blah blah sacrifice. Your mother's eyes, blah blah blah. [Continues] Now run along and defeat Voldemort, if you choose to, that is. Leave the scalebaby where it is, please.

HARRY: No no no wait. I want to go back just a second. You and Grindelwald? So are you, like, gay or something?

DUMBLEDORE: What, you didn't know? Don't you remember my chocolate frog card? "Albus Dumbledore is best known for his work on alchemy with his partner Nicholas Flamel, his work as a consultant on various Wizarding Wireless Network series about fashion, and his discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood (use number eight: lube). Professor Dumbledore enjoys chamber music and alpine skiing..."

HARRY: So... wait, two men kissing and cuddling?

DUMBLEDORE: ... Yes, Harry. Two men, kissing and cuddling. But this is not important now. What is important is your bravery... the sacrifice you have made... true Gryffindor...

HARRY: No, wait, go back for a second. Buttsex?

And so on. My point is, there's an awful lot of explaining the entire book going on already, and I'm finding this kind of boring right now, so introducing yet another loose end to be immediately dealt with would be, shall we say, inefficient at this stage.

Actually, scratch that, I don't really have a point. I just wanted an excuse to use the phrase "alpine skiing".

Although, actually, I said I'd come back to that post-DH interview, didn't I? Anyway, this bothers me - JKR said that she hadn't really considered (!!!) the wizarding world's general attitude to sexuality but that it was probably no big deal - that wizards like Lucius Malfoy wouldn't care about people's love lives because they are more worried about blood purity. I would have assumed that wizards like Lucius Malfoy would be interested in people's love lives for precisely that reason - i.e. they'd want pureblood witches and pureblood wizards to go out and make pureblood babies and not waste all those pureblood zygotes on gay. Hmm.

Oy. That was a tangent and a half, so let's just carry on with the chapter.

... Dumbledore won't drop the whole Grindelwald subject, even though I just said we ought to be carrying on with the rest of the chapter. He says that even before they fell out for real, the two of them disagreed about how they should use the hallows: for example, Dumbledore wanted to use the resurrection stone to reunite his family, whilst Gellert thought it would be better put to use - get this - raising an army of zombies. I've touched on this issue before, but - how utterly textbook teenage goth is that? I used to go out to scuzzy clubs when I was about 17 and drink vodka, dance to crap music with guitars in and kiss boys whose ultimate ambition was to raise an army of zombies - admittedly in their cases for sexual purposes and because nobody else would do it with them. (That was back when I looked like Snape, by the way. And given the size of this fandom plus rule 34, girl!Snape/Grindelwald does exist somewhere, y/y?)

'Kay, so having finally finished with the Grindelwangst, we move on to the hallows themselves. Dumbledore wangsts over the resurrection stone, explaining that he wasn't worthy of it because he wanted to use it to drag people back from the dead like in Buffy that time, and he wasn't worthy of the cloak either, because he borrowed that to look at it. Or something. Harry is the true master of the hallows although I can't figure out why, except that he is the hero archetype and therefore it would be him, wouldn't it? As Dumbledore tells Harry this, he actually pats his hand, which makes me want to punch him for being so bloody patronising. Harry laps it up.

The next loose end to be neatly tied off is why the Quest (as before, that's JKR's capital Q) to find the hallows was so difficult. And Dumbledore makes up some explanation about how he thought Harry would be reckless with them if they were too easy to find, and therefore Hermione needed to be there to be Harry's brain for him and stop him getting them before the end of the book before he was ready to possess them or some shit like that.

Also, we learn that Voldemort didn't know about the hallows at all. Although he did want the elder wand, which he knew was the best and biggest wand ever, but he didn't know about the hallows. I can't help thinking you'd have to be pretty special to know so much about the elder wand and yet never have heard about the hallows. Finally, Dumbledore admits that one tiny, single piece of his plan did not come to pass, and that was that he wanted Snape to end up with the elder wand. Why, though? I've already written the part of the next chapter where I rip this apart - we don't learn properly why this bit of the plan didn't work until Harry and Voldemort are monologuing at each other right before Voldemort dies (and yes, I know that "monologuing at each other" is kind of nonsense, but that sort of info-dump, explaining-all-the-plot-points thing is monologuing, in my view, regardless of how many people are involved) so I won't go into this now. I will, though.

That last paragraph does make sense, by the way. Really it does.

OK, so we're nearly through this extended therapy session, so let's get on with it. Harry and Dumbledore spend some more time just sitting in companionable silence. By this point, we learn, the whimperings of the scalebaby no longer bother Harry, so that's good. There's nothing like an annoying flayed child to mess up a perfectly good afterlife bonding session.

Eventually, they talk some more, and it is decided that Harry should go back to the real world to tie up the rest of the book's loose ends. (Fun fact: pre-DH I totally called this.) Therefore, the scene begins to fade to white like this is an episode of Six Feet Under or something. Dumbledore, too, starts to fade out, and as he does, Harry asks whether this chapter has been real, or happening inside his head. Dumbledore says that it was inside his head, but that doesn't mean it wasn't real. I find this statement annoying, firstly because it brings about a contradiction in my wanky, smug, sociologist's brain: as an atheist I think it's the worst kind of bullshit, but as a (*cringe*) Foucauldian I'd argue that the two can't be separated, because the very notion of "real" is a construction anyway. I'm such a cock.

But, you know, it's not even about the Serious Business deep down. It's about the fact that this is typical Dumbledore-style "Ooh, I'm all wise and stuff, listen to me and my pseudo-mysticism, check out my long white beard" rubbish. It's like he's only saying this stuff because he knows Harry is fading back into the real world and can't call him on it. At one point in this chapter, while Dumbledore is talking at Harry, there is a bit that says, "Dumbledore was being infuriating", so even JKR knows how annoying this is. She mocks us.

God, there is so much bloody talking in this chapter. It is long. I am trying to make this fun and enjoyable for everyone but it's a struggle because Dumbledore will not shut up and there is almost nothing interesting to be said. The next chapter, though, is good and it's got Neville in it, so that's something.

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(20 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]minnow_53
2008-05-01 04:55 pm UTC (link)
What you've mainly done here is make me realise how great the King's Cross chapter would have been with a really intense discussion of Dumbledore's gayness. :D I won't quote back all your dialogue, but it was amazing, and yes, I lol'ed. Quite a lot. Especially at the following:

HARRY: So... wait, two men kissing and cuddling?

DUMBLEDORE: ... Yes, Harry. Two men, kissing and cuddling. But this is not important now. What is important is your bravery... the sacrifice you have made... true Gryffindor...

HARRY: No, wait, go back for a second. Buttsex?


I won't go into the alpine skiing. 0_o Breaks the ice at parties, I suppose... :/

Btw, I did realise that the flayed baby was Voldemort, though I was confused by him not actually being dead yet. Not sure that one worked.

Anyway, I really enjoyed, as usual. To the max, in fact. :D Looking forward to more Neville soon.

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-01 06:58 pm UTC (link)
I did realise that the flayed baby was Voldemort

Ha - as I was writing that bit I was thinking, "Hey, I bet Minnow totally got that it was Voldemort". :D ♥

Your comment regarding ice being broken at parties does beg the question of what sort of parties you go to. I won't ask. ;)

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[info]spacefragments
2008-05-01 05:15 pm UTC (link)
i interpreted that as lucius malfoy doesn't care much about draco purebloods being gay as long as he they still get married and produce little pureblood babies. they can have affairs on the side or whatever. it's probably one of those "things we don't talk about", but as soon as one of them gays says "hell no" to that, it's guaranteed ostracism. not very tolerant after all, ha.

jkr said that "it would be exactly what it is in the Muggle World", but... where exactly in the muggle world? i'm going to assume she meant modern-day britain. which probably means that there will be people who are cool with it, and people who aren't. but i still think there will be more people who aren't. it seems to fit more with the society she's created, imo...

i wonder how lucius malfoy would feel about gay muggleborns. on one hand, they could be worse than regular straight muggleborns. otoh, maybe they're better because at least they're not breeding!

harry should've helped the flayed baby. make things less good/evil black/white, and therefore more interesting than confusing "dumbledore explains all" talk. i mean, what would be the consequences of that. mmm, what-ifs.

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-01 07:45 pm UTC (link)
Everything you said = yes. Especially:

i'm going to assume she meant modern-day britain. which probably means that there will be people who are cool with it, and people who aren't. but i still think there will be more people who aren't. it seems to fit more with the society she's created, imo...

Absolutely. I can imagine people like Harry or Hermione (i.e. muggleborns) being cool with it, but even families like the Weasleys would probably be a bit... iffy, especially someone like Molly. The wizarding world seems to be behind the rest of muggle Britain in a lot of ways, so it doesn't fit if everyone is 100% tolerant. Anyway, someone like Lucius Malfoy, in modern muggle Britain, would still be traditional aristocracy, not generally known for being progressive.

i wonder how lucius malfoy would feel about gay muggleborns

I imagine that would depend on whether he knew about one specific gay muggleborn who, as we know, is regularly fucking Lucius's son. :D

I agree about the flayed baby too - if Harry had at least tried to help and it had, I dunno, pushed him off or something - anything to show that he was trying to help and it wouldn't be helped, that would have been better. As it is it's more like Dumbledore shows up and lets him off the hook, and together they decide it's not worth bothering with.

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[info]spacefragments
2008-05-01 11:09 pm UTC (link)
I imagine that would depend on whether he knew about one specific gay muggleborn who, as we know, is regularly fucking Lucius's son. :D

but harry's a half-blood! heh.

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-02 09:29 am UTC (link)
Good point. Hmm. Maybe Lucius Malfoy wouldn't make the distinction, though, as Harry grew up in the muggle world anyway, and anyone other than a pureblood is bad regardless...

Or whatever. The point is, H/D rules. :D

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[info]elethian
2008-05-01 08:28 pm UTC (link)
HARRY: No, wait, go back for a second. Buttsex?

LOL, I loved this exchange. That's so how it would go down if Dumbles mentioned his gayitude even in passing.

And given the size of this fandom plus rule 34, girl!Snape/Grindelwald does exist somewhere, y/y?)

Like duh.

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-02 09:35 am UTC (link)
Haha, I know - the likelihood of Harry noticing/understanding anything without it being spelled out in minute detail is pretty low. :D

Thanks for reading, I'm glad you liked. :)

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[info]potter_freak515
2008-05-02 02:50 am UTC (link)
Regarding Dumbledore coming out in the book: I actually like you're idea of where it could have been placed, but I think the problem with that would be that it would distract readers from what Dumbledore is talking about.

What I mean is, if right after Dumbledore's death wasn't the right time for Tonks to throw herself at Lupin (and it wasn't; regardless of my own shipping preferences, it really, really wasn't), then right after Harry himself has been near enough killed might not be the right time for Dumbledore to introduce such a potentially weighty topic, especially if he's not sure how Harry's gonna take it.

But according to Jo, it's not a weighty topic in the wizarding world. However, I have totally dismissed this information because, besides your point about wanting more purebloods, if homosexuality is okay even by pureblood standards, then there's no excuse for Sirius having pictures of Muggle girls all over his room!

I knew that the baby thing was Voldemort, but I still don't really get what it was doing there. Harry had the chance to stay or leave, so I understand why he's there, but what choice has a pieece Voldemort's soul got? What happens to it when Harry leaves? Or was it just there to illustrate a point to Harry? Because I was under the impression that King's Cross wasn't really a real place, just something conjured up for Harry... Yeah, beacuse Dumbledore said something like, "Is that what it looks like to you?" It was a place Harry subconsciously associated with big decisions or going into a new world or something. So what, from a psuchological standpoint, was the point in having the Voldemort!baby there? Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Because Harry didn't just imagine Dumbledore's explanation - that really happened. So there is a base of reality. But what happened to all the other bits of Voldemort's soul that got destroyed? Why weren't they there? Or rather, why did Harry and this bit of soul get sent to the same place? Because they were killed at the same time? Because they were somehow linked?

I don't really know anything about Foucault, but if I'm understanding you correctly, I believe that when Dumbledore said it was real, he was not referring to the fact that it was real because Harry experienced it. Because there's no sodding way Harry's smart enough to create an explanation for all that. Again, I could be completely misinterpreting what you said, so feel free to ignore that!

I can't help thinking you'd have to be pretty special to know so much about the elder wand and yet never have heard about the hallows.

Eh, I think the legend of the Hallows is something that's not really told much. The Tale of the Three Brothers is, of course, but even Xeno Lovegood said that most people don't know anything about the meaning behind it, didn't he? I mean, even Hermione hadn't heard of them. The Elder Wand had it's own seperate legend because it had been passed on throughout the centuries. And wizards don't have the Internet, so he can't just Google the phrase.

I know you said you weren't completely pleased with how you wrote this chapter, but I like the stuff where you actually get into discussions! It's still funny, but it also provokes a lot of thought.

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-02 01:36 pm UTC (link)
it would distract readers from what Dumbledore is talking about

Yeah, I agree - it would certainly complicate matters. (Then again, he does go on about how Grindelwald's ideas "inflamed" him and therefore affected his judgement, and it wouldn't have been a great leap. I dunno - I actually don't feel too strongly either way, it's more thinking about how things could have been.)

I'm with you on the Voldebaby thing - it just doesn't add up. I hadn't thought of the other pieces of soul - perhaps they go to the same place as the souls of people who receive the dementor's kiss? Hmm.

I take your point on the elder wand legend - and now I think of it, I believe Dumbledore says something about how Voldemort wouldn't be interested in a children's story because he wouldn't consider it important. So I guess I'll let that one go. I suppose the problem is, there's a prt of me that feels I shouldn't need to ask that sort of question (although doing so is fun!).

And wizards don't have the Internet, so he can't just Google the phrase.

Ha! Well, maybe they should have the internet. :P

it also provokes a lot of thought

Thank you. That is such a massive compliment. ♥

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[info]minnow_53
2008-05-03 05:06 pm UTC (link)
Then again, he does go on about how Grindelwald's ideas "inflamed" him

Just butting in for a quick snigger... :D

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[info]spacefragments
2008-05-04 01:27 am UTC (link)
it sounds like grindelwald gave him an STD, sort of. :/

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[info]iamstarmom
2008-05-02 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Dumbledore led the trio through a dangerous wild goose chase was because Harry had to be able to handle the power. This really makes me crazy. I haven't found any place in DH where Harry finds out how to 'handle the power' of the hallows. It makes no sense. Kinda like how I hate when Glinda tells Dorothy that she always had the power to take herself home. I always want to have Dorothy punch her in the face at that point. "YOU BITCH WITCH!" Slam bam. Out for the count.

It's fine if our heroes have to grow and learn something. But to not SHOW us how this comes about is just lazy.

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-03 12:44 pm UTC (link)
I completely agree - if Harry did something with the hallows, actually used them, that would be fine, but he doesn't. If you removed them from the story it would make about as much sense, and as you say, we don't see Harry becoming any more powerful or anything like that. For all it matters, Dumbledore may as well have told Harry he didn't want them to find the hallows "until the end of the book" or something.

Heheh - Glinda annoys me too. She's so bloody self-righteous! :D

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[info]air_and_angels
2008-05-07 11:57 pm UTC (link)
Besides the fact that what Glinda says is manifestly untrue. Dorothy has learned that there's no place like home, but has learned NOTHING about how to get herself back there.
Gawd I hated this chapter. Thanks for the quote!

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-08 10:19 am UTC (link)
Haha, that's cool - I just thought that line was the most perfect summary of this chapter. :D

I agree about Glinda as well - the way she's all "You had the power in you all along! Yes, you totally did! Even if I am pulling this out of my ass!" really winds me up. In fact, she has that in common with Dumbledore, doesn't she? :)

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[info]semielliptical
2008-05-09 04:04 pm UTC (link)
I completely lost it while reading the "Harry learns about the buttsex" converation. :D

The flayed baby - what a mess. When reading this chapter originally, I figured it represented Voldemort somehow, but exactly how or why was beyond the limited brain power I was willing to devote to it. But it certainly seemed odd to me that it was a *baby* - i.e., an innocent - and that Harry was supposed to ignore its pain.

So I was interested to read JKR's explanation, here. I still don't get her intentions. I mean, the fact that Dumbledore wants Harry to ignore it implies that Voldemort's soul is unredeemable (which, yeah, it certainly is *at this time*), but if that's the case, why represent it as a baby? Or even baby-like, as she says in her FAQ? To me a baby clearly symbolizes innocence, in some way, and even the fact that it's twisted and wounded implies to me that he once had the potential to be a decent person, before he became corrupted. Yet if we're not supposed to have any sympathy for this baby-like piece of Voldie's soul, JKR seems to be marking him as a sociopath/devil, corrupt from the moment he was born. I'm going in circles here, I can't figure out what she was trying to accomplish with this. Certainly on my original read what she accomplished was to make me uncomfortable.

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-09 09:25 pm UTC (link)
I take your point about the baby and what it symbolises - a flayed baby is suggestive of having been hurt by someone else, but Voldemort is meant to split his soul and become so damaged and so on of his own accord. (And one of the themes of the series - I thought for a long time - was that it's our choices that determine who we are. But then Voldemort, from what we see of him in HBP, seems to have been born sociopathic, which sort of undermines that - it implies that he didn't have a choice to become this way.)

I find myself comparing the baby to, say, Gollum from LotR. Gollum is pitiful and shrivelled up and whimpering and everything, but he made himself that way by his obsession with the ring and the corruption that came with it and so on. But, yeah, as you say, a baby carries with it connotations of innocence, purity, helplessness and so on. When we see a child that's hurt, we're not supposed to think it's that child's fault it's in pain.

I'm rambling a bit here, but my point is - I agree absolutely. :)

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[info]semielliptical
2008-05-09 11:34 pm UTC (link)
Oh, Gollum is a good comparison, that's useful! (Though of course if Dumbledore were more like Gandalf, he would probably point out that Gollum/Voldie deserved Harry/Frodo's pity, instead of ignoring it.)

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[info]fera_festiva
2008-05-10 04:16 pm UTC (link)
Yes, well, Gandalf isn't a complete t00b, unlike Dumbledore. He has actual empathy and emotions and stuff. Plus he could kick Dumbledore's ass in a fight

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